FAQs about Tires

Do I need snow tires?

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 14:07:05 PDT
From: werner.wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Snow Tires - pt.1
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, talon@di.com

Well, for those of us who live with snow, it is time to consider the yearly question of snow tires. Do I need them? What should I buy? Should I run studded or unstudded tires? What about all season tires?

Let's start with the first question first: Do I _need_ them?

As a rallyists, I look at it this way: A set of very good snow tires runs me $400. My deductible on my insurance is $500. If I save the $400 and then get into an accident because I was trying to run with summer tires on a snow covered road, I am out at least $500. So, economically, I am better off getting $400 of snow tires then paying $500 on my deductible and having to put up with higher insurance rates.

Now, do I have to spend $400 on snow tires? NO, I can probably get away with $30 / tire. Even the low cost Snow tires (not all seasons) will be better then a summer tire. (BTW: A big question is what size tires you need. 215/50 R 16s are going to be expensive no matter what tire you buy. 165 R 13s are always cheaper.)

If you are willing to leave the car home when it snows, or only drive a couple of miles, you can probably get away without snow tires. If you plan to drive any distance, and you live someplace is snows, you really need to consider getting snow tires. Chains are not a substitute for snow tires.

"But I have an AWD car. I can get going in any weather!" Yes, but can you stop? One snowy night, I was coming back along a main road and I saw an interesting thing. A brand new Jeep CJ-10 stuck in the rear end of a bus. Yes, he got going faster, but it didn't help him when we went to stop.

"But I have ABS and traction Control" ABS will help you keep from locking up the brakes, but you will not stop faster then if you had snow tires. It will also not help you turn. Traction control is like AWD, it gets you going, but does not help with stopping or turning. Automobile Magazine had a very good article on why to use snow tires last year. A year before that, they totaled an MR2 because they were driving it on a snowy road without snow tires. (They then said the car handled poorly in the snow!)

What about All Season Tires?

The work fine in southern California's 4 seasons, none of which includes snow. All Season tires tend to be more of a marketing hype then a real rating. There may be some All Season Tires that are good in snow, but most are really junk. A friend of mine had All Season Goodyear GT+4 tires on his 90 Talon TSI (AWD). At a control I was working in a rally, he came through the control on time, and then discovered that his All Seasons tires and AWD did not help him stop before the ditch. We spent 2.5 hours trying to get him out before our sweep vehicle extracted him. The next year he got a good set of Winter Snow tires and has not had problems since.

Ok John, so I need snow tires, Should I get studded or unstudded?

The answer to that is complicated. First, your state or province may have already forced the choice by passing a law against studded snow tires.

Studded snow tires are a trade off. If you are on hard packed (frozen) mud, or ice, they will grab better then any thing except screws and (possibly) chains. On the dry, they will actually have less traction then the same snow tire without studds. This is becuase on the dry pavement, you will actually be running partly on the studs and you will not have as much rubber in contact with tthe road.

Other draw backs to studds are that they are much noisier and some people claim they chew up roads faster.

Ok, I drive on ice, but I don't want studds, what should I do?

Ok, What tire should I buy?

Stay tuned for part 2, coming tomorrow.

--John

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 07:57:34 PDT
From: werner.wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Snow Tires - pt.2
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, talon@di.com

In the last article, I went into some of the reasons for wanting snow tires. If you live where there is real snow (a couple of ft. or more per year) and you do any distance of driving, then you really should consider getting snow tires for your car. AWD, ABS, Traction Control, and Limited Slip Differentials will all help, but they can not replace snow tires. All season tires are good if you only plan to drive in snow once or twice a year, but most all season tires are poor when it comes to getting through snow.

So, What choices do I have?

Most tire manufacturers make a true Mud & Snow (M+S) tire. The differences come in the trade offs. Deep, heavy snow is much like mud. It requires a tire with large tread blocks and good size openings. The tire must be able to dig a foot hold, but not get clogged at low speeds. IF the tire can expell the snow, it will start making itself into a snow ball. This type of tire is the "classic" M+S design. Typically, the blocks are large and have lots of space between them. The tires sold on most trucks (designed to see mud, regardless if they ever do) are typical of this tread.

Lighter snow, typical when the weather turns really cold and there are no salt trucks, allows a different tread design. The snow tires designed for high speed driving in the snow typically are designed for this use. The tread blocks are closser, often smaller, and are cut with sipes (little groove sort of things). Often, these tires do not work well at low speeds because they tend to pack up. They rely more on the centrifugal force to throw the snow out of the tread.

Ice is it's own special case. The best tires for ice have 1/2" sheet metal screws protruding from them and are almost exclusively found on ice-racing cars. The screws litterally chew into the ice to provide traction. A more road worthy solution is studded snow tires. Metal studds are inserted in factory drilled holes in the tires. The pattern and number of studs will make a difference on the performance of the tire. In general, the more studs, the better the ice performance of the tire and the worse the dry pavement performance. (With studded tires, you are actually always running partly on the studs.)

One question that frequently comes up is "I have snow tires I am currently running, but they don't have studs. Can I just put studs in them?" The answer is NO. Once you have run on the tires, the holes for the studs become clogged. Even if you could force a stud back in the hole, it would not stay. You can always remove studs from a snow tire, but you can not put them in once it has been used.

Up until recently, there was a big gap between studded snow tires and non-studded snow tires when it came to performance on ice. Bridgestone and Nokia have closed that gap up. Bridgestone now offers a true studdless snow tire that has ice performance on par with that of studded snow tires.

Now I know about tires, what is out there?

Tires are almost a religion to some people. I tend to have my personal favorites based on my experience in running agressive night rallies in winter in the "outback" of New York State. Cost is much less of a concern for me then is being able to run through 2 inches of snow without lossing much in terms of handling and performance. [Last year, the second Witner rally had 2" of snow on all of the roads. We ran the event at 40 mph in my AWD Galant VR-4. Sounds slow until you get into those turns and are trying to maintain 40 mph.]

I mentioned a new Bridgestone tire. For the last few years, Bridgestone has made a very interesting tire, the Blizak. The tire is a true snow tire, but it is not designed to be studded. The tire uses a unique tread design and compound to achieve its performance in snow and ice. The reports I have heard on this tire give it better traction then unstudded Nokia Hakkapelikta NR-10s (see above). The tire was made available in Canada last year and has become the choice of winter rallyists up there.

One of the unique thins about the Bridgestone Blizak is the tread design. First, the tread is has many sipes to help remove the water and to form edges to help cut into the ice. The tread design also has 2 different compounds. Unlike the Perelli P77, the compounds are not side-by-side, but rather stacked on top of each other. The outer compound is specifically designed for winter use and is soft. Once you wear through that compound you come to an All Season tread compound. The tread depth has been increased so that you can get long service out of both compounds. The people I have talked to tend to think the read life should give 2 years as a real snow tire and a year as an all season tire. One persom even told me that there are 2 sets of wear bars. One for each compound.

My personal favorite for winter tires are Nokia Hakkapeliktas. Nokia is a Finish company and the Hakkas are their line of snow tires. Currently, there are two Hakka's designed to be studded. The NR-09 is the older design, and the NR-10 is the newest design. The NR-10 has better traction then the 'legendary' NR-09 and features a uni-directional tread design. The compound on the NR-10 is softer then the NR-09, so tread wear is higher. One of the neat things out the Hakkas are the number of studs they are drilled for. Typically, they have 2 times the number of stud holes then other snow tires. This excess of studs really helps their ice traction.

There is also a non-studded, speed rated Hakka, the NRW. Reports are that it is not as good as the NR-09 and 10 on ice, reasonably good in snow, and a hole lot quieter.

One more installment to go....

--John

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 08:06:31 PDT
From: werner.wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Snow Tires - pt.3
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, talon@di.com

[Continuation of What snow tires to get]

The following list of tires was compiled by Tim Takahashi, the founder of the Volvo-Net mailing list. [BTW: Those of you who only think of Volvos as sedate, yuppy haulers show see what some of us on that list have. 250 bhp Volvo Wagons, Volvo race cars, Volvos with 5.0 Liter Mustang motors.]

DRIVING STYLE :  VERY HARD, HARD, EASY

DRY TRACTION :          EXCELLENT - no problems when driven *VERY*
hard

         GOOD - occasional tire squeal when driven hard

                        POOR - easy to make the tires squeal

WET TRACTION :          EXCELLENT - full confidence even in heavy
rain

                        GOOD - acceptible wet weather performance

                        POOR - skids easily, unpredictable in
wet

SNOW TRACTION :     EXCELLENT - full confidence in snow

         GOOD - ocassional skidding in snow

         POOR - skids easily, unpredictable in snow

         N/A - never driven in snow

Manufacturer | Tire     | Driving  | DRY  | WET  | SNOW    | 
Sum Up

             |          |  Style   | Perf | Perf | Perf    |

    Model    |     Size |VH|Hrd|Esy|Ex|G|P|Ex|G|P|Ex|G|P|NA|

-------------+----------+--+---+---+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-----------------

Continental  |          |  |   |   |  | | |  | | |  | | |  |

 TS-740      |195/70QR14| 1|  -|  -| -|1|-| 1|-|-| 1|-|-| -|Exc.
Snow Tire

 TS-740      |195/65HR14|

 TS-740      |185/70QR14| -|  -|  1| -|1|-| 1|-|-| 1|-|-| -| fairly
quiet

-------------+----------+--+---+---+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-----------------

Goodyear     |          |  |   |   |  | | |  | | |  | | |  |

 Arriva      |P185/70R14| -|  1|  -| -|1|-| -|1|-| -|-|-| 1|SoSo
for the Blimp

 AquaTred    |205/70SR14| 1|  -|  -| -|1|-| 1|-|-| -|1|-| -|

 F32         |185/75R14 | -|  -|  1| -|-|-| -|-|-| 1|-|-| -|Snow
tires

-------------+----------+--+---+---+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-----------------

Gislaved     |          |  |   |   |  | | |  | | |  | | |  |

 Frost       |185/65sr15| -|  1|  -| -|1|-| 1|-|-| 1|-|-| -|Exc
Snow Tire

 Frost       |185R14    | -|  1|  -| -|1|-| 1|-|-| 1|-|-| -| Quieter
than Vred.

-------------+----------+--+---+---+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-----------------

Nokia        |          |  |   |   |  | | |  | | |  | | |  |

 NR09 Haaka  |185/65R15 | 1|  -|  -| -|1|-| -|1|-| 1|-|-| -|Super
Snow Tire

 NR08 Haaka  |165R15    | 1|  -|  -| -|1|-| -|1|-| 1|-|-| -|(noisy)

 Haaka NR-10 |185/65R14 | 1| 1 |   |  |2|-| 2|-|-| 2|-|-| -|"super
snow tire"

-------------+----------+--+---+---+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-----------------

Semperit     |          |  |   |   |  | | |  | | |  | | |  |

 M+S         |185R14    | 1|  -|  -| -|1|-| -|1|-| 1|-|-| -|Exc
Studded Snow

-------------+----------+--+---+---+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-----------------

Vredestein   |          |  |   |   |  | | |  | | |  | | |  |

 Snow +      |185R14    | -|  1|  -| -|1|-| 1|-|-| 1|-|-| -|Exc
Studded Snow

-------------+----------+--+---+---+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-+-+--+-----------------

Tires Rated EXC in Snow

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Continental Contact TS-740 (Snow Tire)

      Goodyear F32S (Snow Tire)

      Nokia "Haakapellita" NR09/NR10 (Snow Tire)

      Pirelli P77 ("All Season")

      Pirelli Winter S2 (Snow Tire)

      Semperit M+S (Studded Snow Tire)

      Vredestein Snow+ (Studded Snow Tire)

What Size Tire Should I run?

Again, this is a compromise. The best tire to cut through deep snow is a narrow one. The worst is a wide one. Unfortunately, the best tire for lateral traction is a wide tire and narrow tires are known to be bad. Part of the problem is also dictated by the rim sizes you have. If you only have a 16x8" set of rims, and do not want to buy more rims, then you end up running a wide snow tire.

My personal solutions: For my 1 remaining Volvo, I actually have 5 sets of rims of varying sizes. I used to have both wide and narrow snow tires. The wide tires (185/70 R 14, 185/65 R 15) were both studded and used year round. I also have a set of 165/80R15s mounted on narrow, 4.5" rims. These are not studded and were bought to use on Canadian performance rallies in the winter.

My solution for the Mitsu. Galant VR-4 is based on my present cash flow. I have one set of rims, so I have found a set of snow tires that fit those rims well. The rims are 15x6" and take 195/60-15 tires in the summer. For winter I use 185/65 R 15s. I plan to eventually get a wider set of wheels for summer (15x7" or 16x7.5") and turn the stock alloy wheels into winter wheels. [BTW: >From the best I have found out, Mitsu. does not make a steel wheel that fits a Galant VR-4 becuase it requires 15" wheels, not the 14" the rest of the Galants used. My father ended up doing a similiar thing on his Merkur Scropio which has the same lack of steel wheels.]

--John

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:17:05 PDT
From: werner.wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Snow Tires - pt.4
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu, talon@di.com

[I forgot to put this in, but it really needs to be said. It is something I take for granted and don't think about.]

How many snow tires should I buy?

As many has you have wheels on your car -- 4 [no comments from dually truck owners:-]. Consider it this way: If you put only two snow tire on your car, one end of the car will have better traction then the other. This applies both to dry and snow covered roads. In the snow, the snow tires will have better traction. In the dry, the regular tires will have better traction.

Now, with this difference in traction, it means tha when you brake, turn, or accelerate, the two ends of teh car will want to behave differently. If the back end has worse traction, you will spin. If the front end has worse traction, you will keep going straight, even while trying to brake. Neither is really a nice thing to happen in a panic situation.

But, I used to put snow tires on the back of my .... And drive year round....

Ok. It really is your choice. But, you will find that if you invest in high performance snow and pavement tires, the miss-match is a lot worse then you ever got with the $20 special bias-plies.

If you do decide to only go with 2 snow tires, put them on the back of the car, regardless if it is FWD, RWD, 4WD or AWD. It is a lot easier to deal with the car understeering (wanting to go straight) then it is with the car wanting to over steer (spin).

Another thing that should be watched out for is mixing different brands of snow tires. I know of one person who ran 2 different brands of snow tires on his Volvo. Depending on which end of the car he put which brand made the car either very easy to drive or undrivable.

Always match tires on the same axle. They should be the same brand, type, pressure, and have the same wear. (I am talking no grossly different wear, and ignoring tire pressure changes for racing, etc.) A tire with little tread will not do nearly as well in the snow as one with a lot of tread.

Again, I will state it again: The cost of snow tires is probably less then the detuctible on your insurance!

What effect do tires have and why?

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 13:41:40 PDT
From: werner.wbst311@xerox.com
Subject: Re: Brit 240 (80)
To: moran@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu

>I do not understand what effect the tires would have or why? Thanks.

165R15 tires on 15x4.5" 140 rims will work on 200 series Volvos (except possibly for the locating pin, more later). Many of the local Volvo rallyists ran narrow Hakkas (165R15) on their 200 series volvos in the winter because the narrow tire works better in deep snow because it cuts through better (think: wide knife or narrow knife, which cuts butter better).

The complications are simple. First, the offset on the narrow rims causes the car to have a slightly narrowere tract. For normal driving, this will not be a concern. If you are into rallying in winter, you need to know that this will make the car loose some directional stability on very bumpy (read washboard) surfaces.

The other reported complication is that you may rub. There are two forms of rubbing to look for, one is where the tire rubs on a fender. This may occur when heavily loaded or on the fronts when turning very, very tightly. Solution: Do load/turn the car as much. (The 205x60 on custom 15x7" rims on my 145 rub slightly on the fender lip on the rear right when you fully bottom the car out. No damage is done to the tire and IPD's trick of rolling the fender lip worked to solve the problem.)

The other type of rub is wheel/tire against suspension parts. This can be check for visually when installing the wheels by looking for contact. You might have to go under the car to do this, so USE YOUR JACK STANDS. In the front, be sure to turn the steering wheel and check for all steering angles. It is possible that with the car on jack stands, you will not see anything, so also take the car for a short ride. If you hear a funny scraping sound, you have a problem. Also consider jacking up the car and looking for signs of wear on the tire and the car.

I mentioned the locating pin problem. Sometime in the 80s, Volvo started putting locating pins on the wheels. A small, sixth hole is drilled in the rim for the pin. This pin assures that the wheel and the hub aer always mounted with the same relationship. This is required for wheels that are balanced on the car. (Wheels balanced on the car will compensate for hubs that are not perfectly balanced. I don't know of any shops who do this though.) The problem with the old Volvo wheels is that they did not have the sixth hole for the pin. This problem is also shared by some aftermarket wheels for Volvos. There are two solutions, you can drill a hole for the pin, or remove the pin. Most people go for the latter. From what IPD has said, the pin serves no other purpose besides insuring wheel to hub orientation.

Tire Speed Ratings.

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 11:39:31 PDT
From: maj@frame.com (Michael Jue)
To: swedishbricks@me.rochester.edu
Subject: FAQ: Tire Speed Ratings

Just thought a few might want to file this one away (since we were just discussing speed ratings):

Speed Ratings

=============

Q = 100mph  U = 124

R = 106   H = 130

S = 112   V = 149

T = 118   Z = 149+

Speed Rating Myths

==================

1. The higher the speed rating the softer the tread compound.

2. A lower speed rated will always wear better than that of a higher speed rated tire.

3. The higher the speed rating the better the performance.

4. The lower speed rating will always give the best ride quality.

Speed rating is based only on the maximum speed a tire (not a vehicle) is capable of sustaining in optimum road conditions.

Reproduced without permission from The Tire Rack master catalog.

What can I replace my Michelin 190/65 HR 390 TRX's with?

Snow tire report Pirelli 210 on 855T.

I am pleased with the all-around performance of the Pirelli 210P Winter tires 205/55 HR15 on steel wheels with Volvo hubcaps, of course) I recently installed on my 1995 855T.

Living in the Boston area, I wanted reasonable cold/dry performance as well as "better than all-season radial" snow performance. Our typical winter storm road condidions are mixed salt/slush and some mushy berms. Deep puddles abound, and deep snow, if it occurs, is typically accompanied by stopped traffic.

My final choice was between pure (T speed rating) snow tires (blizzak, hakka, gislaved...) and the HR Pirellis. I know from past experience with Michelin XGT/V's that the Pilots were going to be TOTALLY USELESS in the snow but did not want to give up as much dry road performance as I would if I chose pure snows.

The guy at the Tire Rack said that the 210P's are winter tread compound on a P-something carcass (P-Zero? P-7000?). This sold me.

In all, I am quite happy. Dry road performance is ok (feels "waxy"), wet is exceptional, and snow performance is good. All in all, an excellent choice for my needs.

FYI YMMV My .02

My wheels rust a lot and the tires therefore do not seal well, what can I do?

"Jiffy" writes:

I dont know if this is a Volvo problem or just a general problem, but I have had really bad problems with my wheels. It seems that the wheels rust a lot, and the tires therefore do not seal well to the wheel, and the tires leak. What's going wrong? Is this a problem with my wheels that i can easily stop from happening (each time i have any tire work done the dealer has to grind off the rust) or do i need new tires? I'd appreciate any input any of you might have.

Paul replies:

It seems that Swedish steel is somewhat less than what we have been told :-). Actually, this problem occurs with all Volvo steel wheels. I have to re-paint mine anually to keep the rust from creeping into the bead area. This is one of the reasons why I would be less reluctant to switch to an aftermarket steel wheel. (And for $145.00 Cdn! Oh, for shame Volvo!).

You don't need new tires to prevent this type of rim leak. My advice would be to:

(1) With the tires removed, sand off the rust;

(2) Have the rusted areas etched with acid to remove all traces of the red stuff;

(3) Prime and paint, not with a spray (it applies too thin unless you apply 6 coats or more) but with a brush type paint (I use tremclad gloss black); and

(4) Wash the wheels as you would your car during the winter.

According to the rotational arrow on my Nokia's they are on backwards, is this a problem?

On Dec 05, 1995 23:03:59, 'jaos@pclink.com (Jared Aos)' wrote:

>Brickmasters:

>I've just noticed that my Nokia snows (Hakka nr10's) are on backwards >according to the rotational arrow. A tire dealer put them on wrong about >1000 miles/1 mth >ago.

>My question is: Is the direction of rotation specified to prevent damage to >the tire, or for traction reasons?

Traction reasons. I always have to get mounting corrected after the bozos mount my Hakkas backwards. Don't sweat it, just have them reverse the tires...

Lee